Josep Rull: ‘We will set out the ballot boxes in accordance with the laws passed by a legitimate, democratically-elected parliament’

Three months out from the Catalan independence referendum, Democratic Convergence of Catalonia (‘Convergència Democràtica de Catalunya’, CDC), the party leading the Catalan government, suffered a serious blow when its founder Jordi Pujol, who served as President of Catalonia for twenty-three years, confessed that he had kept an undeclared family inheritance outside Spain. The impact of the Pujol Affair now extends beyond the party itself, with potential ramifications for the separatist movement. Nevertheless, President Mas remains firmly committed to holding the referendum, and the pro-independence movement is making plans for major Catalan National Day celebrations on September 11^th. In this interview, Josep Rull, the man tasked with helming the ship for CDC, sat down to talk with us about the Pujol Affair, his party’s commitment to the upcoming November 9^th vote, and the guarantees of democracy needed to ensure that the consultation takes place.

—Who will decide if the consultation takes place on November 9^th? The Spanish Constitutional Court?

—No. The Catalan people will decide, through their Parliament and representatives.

—After the Declaration of Sovereignty is approved, does it make any sense to modify your plans based on what others outside Catalonia say?

—Not at all. The Declaration of Sovereignty will be in full force and effect, as will the idea underpinning it: that the Catalan people have the sovereign right to decide their own future. Consequently, it falls to the Catalan people, through their democratic institutions, to decide how they wish to express the will of the people. 

—Does it make sense to wait for a decision from the Spanish government or Constitutional Court to wrap up the debate about the November 9^th vote?

—All of the actors and political parties need to agree upon our decisions. And these decisions need to be made after the Spanish government and the Constitutional Court make decisions of their own. All of the parties which agreed upon the November 9^th date and the question to be posed need to come together and decide, since we represent the majority of the Catalan Parliament. For each possible scenario that may arise, we will need to decide which strategy we adopt. In any case, we have been and continue to be focused on putting out the ballot boxes so people can vote on November 9^th.  

—Have you considered what might happen if you disobey the Constitutional Court’s prohibition?

—We’ll see what happens. We can’t start making hypotheses about issues that are beyond our power. Our position is clear: we will safeguard the consultation and set out the ballot boxes in accordance with the laws passed by a legitimate, democratically-elected parliament. This is a crucial point: the Parliament of Catalonia is a legitimate, democratic body. This is at the heart of our work. Our actions must be based on three pillars: democracy, legality and legitimacy. This legitimacy is vested in us by the Catalan people and the Catalan people alone.

—Could President Mas be charged with perversion of justice if he follows through on plans to hold the consultation?

—We hope things won’t escalate to this point. Any such attacks would be detrimental to the image of Spain and its democratic foundations. Engaging in ‘ad hominem’ attacks would be a grave error. 

—Are you worried about how the process might play out if the President were charged with perversion of justice or removed from office?

—If Spain were to take such actions, this would further legitimize the process in Catalonia. But we hope that things don’t reach this point. I want to reiterate: we are committed to acting from a place of unity, reinforcing legality based on the fundamental principal of legitimacy. Legality because the law is passed by our Parliament, and legitimacy because this Parliament was democratically elected by the Catalan people, who turned out in great numbers to vote.

—Is the word ‘disobedience’ part of CDC’s vocabulary?

—We prefer to stay positive and speak of legality, legitimacy and democracy. We want to speak of democratic legitimacy, not disobedience.

—In addition to CiU, the political parties which agreed upon the November 9^th date and question have already stated that they want to hold the consultation regardless of what the Constitutional Court may say. President Mas seems a bit hemmed in…

—When the time comes, we’ll have to see what steps must be taken in order to ensure that the consultation can be held. The issue of guaranteeing democracy is key. At that point, political parties, institutions, bodies and the entire Catalan people will need to forge the mechanisms which allow us to guarantee democracy. This is our primary task. This means that we need to be able to put out the ballot boxes in democratically viable conditions. We’re very optimistic about this. We need to create the climate, conditions and setting to guarantee democracy when people turn out to vote. This will ensure that our actions are recognized as legitimate on the international stage.

—You mean ensuring that these guarantees of democracy apply to the consultation?

—Yes, such guarantees are crucial. And the Constitutional Court doesn’t decide on this issue. We do. These guarantees of democracy come from Catalonia. And recognizing these guarantees allows us to take steps in the right direction. If we see that there are challenges, we’ll discuss among all relevant stakeholders and decide what to do together. We only have one shot, and we need to make the absolute most of it. We need to do our utmost with the one shot we have, giving the Catalan people a voice and implementing their will. President Mas is committed to ensuring that everything runs smoothly so this consultation can take place. I have no doubts whatsoever that together, we will be able to create the conditions so that our vote has the necessary guarantees of democracy. I repeat: guarantees of democracy are a crucial element in ensuring that the results of our consultation are recognized on the international stage. Many factors will come into play here: laws, the political climate, the will of the people, unity, and civic movements. And I repeat: all of our decisions must be made together. It falls to us to decide, as a country and as a nation.

—So there’s no back-up plan?

—All back-up plans entail voting. The people of Catalonia must make the final decision. Yesterday, Carme Forcadell spoke of this when she discussed holding a plebiscite-style election. We want to focus on November 9^th, but in any case, any back-up plan entails people going out and voting.

—What will happen if the event planned for September 11^th, the V-day demonstration, mobilizes fewer people than last year’s Catalan Way?

—We don’t envision that happening. We can’t, because we’re convinced that the longer this process lasts, the more support it has. This process is mobilizing more and more people. We have three weeks to reach out to everyone for the greatest turnout possible. We can’t envision having lower turnout, which would have a negative impact.

—Has the Pujol affair cast a disheartening pall over the independence process?

—No, but it is a major blow. And obviously, someone is behind all of this, trying to capitalize on it to lower morale among those who support greater sovereignty. But this process is going to be complicated, and requires both resistance and resilience. This is a critical point. If we are able to be resistant and resilient – which means moving beyond setbacks and coming out stronger for them – we can achieve what we have proposed. It’s important to recognize that the last time western Europe saw a successful process like this one was a hundred years ago, when Norway peacefully and democratically separated from Sweden.

—There have been other cases, too…

—Yes. Ireland, Iceland, Nazi-occupied Denmark, and Malta, among others. But Norway is our point of reference. And it split from Sweden over a hundred years ago. We are embarking on an extraordinary path, doing something extraordinarily difficult and complex. And since the challenge is huge, we have to stave off exhaustion and guarantee that motivation remains high. We need to think like a long-distance runner. If we take a step back, we can see that we have adversaries from without, but we also have a very powerful adversary within: exhaustion and disillusionment. We need to stay united and remember that this process is supported by the vast majority of Catalans.

—Let’s come back to the Pujol Affair. Are you sure that the money hidden by the former President is actually an inheritance, as he has claimed, or might it come from the commissions of 3% reputed to have been levied?

—We have to believe President Pujol’s statement, which he expressed in a vehement, solemn letter to this effect. We hope and believe that these funds are simply an inheritance. There’s no reason for us to doubt what President Pujol has said. However, we do need to ask him to provide further explanations about this. And given that the majority of parties in Parliament have requested that he come before this body to explain his actions, we believe that he should do so in order to provide further detail and back up his earlier statement. And obviously, we have to believe him. We have no reason not to.

—Do you really mean that you take someone who has been lying for more than thirty years at his word?

—To clear things up, we need President Pujol to fully explain what happened. He needs to give explanations to all of the parties who have asked him to do so: the tax authorities, the justice system and the Parliament of Catalonia. That’s the best way to dispel any questions which may exist.

—Opinion polls show that support for CiU is plummeting. Are you worried about the possible effects of the Pujol Affair?

—Of course. We can’t write this off as if it were insignificant. It’s important for us and for our image. Now is the time to overcome this setback and regain people’s confidence. That’s why we’ve announced a process of reforming CDC. We were already planning on carrying out this reform, but we’ve moved up the starting date. We need to renew the image of CDC as the political center for Catalan sovereignty.

—What does this reform process look like with Josep Rull at its helm?

—It’s not just me. It’s me and an entire team. Our main goal is to create a new party for a new country. We founded CDC as a party for a Catalonia with home rule. Now, the country has decided that we need to move toward a Catalonia that is sovereign. Therefore, we need to update our toolkit to take on the challenge of a sovereign Catalonia. Our challenge is to establish and develop a state of our own. The country has changed significantly since CDC was founded. The way we understand politics, the common good and governance is different from how we understood these in 1974. Then, our motto was ‘building the nation.’ Now, we want to continue to build the nation, but we also want to build the state as the basic tool serving our people.

—When will independence be proclaimed?

—VilaWeb published a report which analyzed cases of proclamations of independence in the last few decades. I often refer to it. The report showed that the average amount of time between when peoples expressed their democratic will and independence was proclaimed was approximately two years. That’s what we’re looking at here: a time frame which provides enough time to negotiate with Spain about how assets and liabilities will be distributed, negotiate the status of a new independent Catalonia with the international community, and create the tools we need as a state to operate as a new international actor in accordance with international law. The difference between Scotland and Catalonia is that the British leader is unequivocally committed to respecting democracy, whereas his counterpart in Spain sees democracy as something that is very incidental.